New Lutheran - Latest Comments

Re: House of the Rock

Brett — Mon, 09 Jan 2012 11:34:47 -0000

Sound like a great alternative worship service, thanks for reviewing it. Does anybody know any other Lutheran churches that are doing things like this?

Re: It’s Been Just Over A Year…

New Lutheran — Thu, 14 Jul 2011 11:02:14 -0000

Thanks for stopping by! I don't know that I'll post every day, but I'm going to set a starter goal of at least once a week. :)

Re: It’s Been Just Over A Year…

Kate — Thu, 14 Jul 2011 10:36:16 -0000

Welcome back! Glad to see you talk about all of your efforts! Look forward to hearing more. :)

Re: About

james — Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:51:57 -0000

I am an ethnic minority in this country. And I was 37 year old when I was approved by the candidacy committee to enter the process for first call in the ELCA. Now I am 40 year old, and my eligibility to await for my first call has expire, no call, actually I never had one interview in those three years in the ELCA. During those three years, I was asked to "Americanized" my name, which I did, and to minimize my foreign accent, even thought I attended a theological school in this country. I was also asked to learn Spanish, even thought I am not Hispanic. It is funny that my counterparts, those who graduated with me, had no problem getting first call I guess they did exactly what I wasn't able to do that is "Americanized" their name, minimize their middle-western accent, and learn English. It is good to be in the ELCA. Got to love it.

Re: Would God Vote “Yes” On Your Church Budget?

Lutherans.com — Thu, 27 Jan 2011 16:22:01 -0000

Just a side note: The problem with specifying where your offerings go, is that it doesn't work. ;) If you want $100 to go to project A, and the church needs $100 for project B, they'll simply use more (as a percentage) of the rest of the congregation's offerings on project B to accomplish their goals (and, as a result, less of the rest of the congregation's offerings on your project A).

This isn't the church being tricky...in the way budgets are set up, it's hard for a church *not* to do this type of thing, even without realizing it.

Re: The First Argument

Svpn09 — Thu, 20 Jan 2011 16:32:11 -0000

I think you need to remeber what it was like 200 years ago and even closer to now. infant mortality was huge. families would lose their little ones before the age of 8 from all sorts of diseases, infections, etc. so many things are now not here or are immunised for. so i believe the concept of baptizing infants is to ensure their safe travel and place in heaven. there are stories of utter fear from parents who didnt have their child baptized soon enough. so the practice i beleive became one of necessity. to wait to an older age was allowing the opportunity for a child to miss out on being baptised altogether. polio, small pox, german measles, measles, whooping cough, birthing complications, just to name a few. not uncommon for families to have 3 small gravesites or more. my great grandparents 9 children with only 2 reaching past 7yrs. so my though is that infant baptism became an obvious option. why chance a little child to miss out altogether. "bring the children to me" . says it all

Re: About

New Lutheran — Tue, 14 Sep 2010 10:05:22 -0000

From my experience, I've found that most 50+ pastors I've met seem somewhat out of touch. They don't speak the same language as a 20 or 30 something. They don't keep up with emerging trends in the church or current tools for communicating with our demographic. To me, this is like sending a missionary to a foreign country without first learning the language.

Granted, not all 50-somethings are created equal. I've encountered a handful of 50+ pastors who are innovative, creative, and are staying current in the way they reach out to younger generations. This is a rare find though.

Re: About

boscojones — Tue, 14 Sep 2010 09:52:08 -0000

What exactly is your issue with a 50-something year old minister trying to relate to a 20 or 30-something year old churchgoer?

I am a curious 58 year old campus pastor.

Re: About

Dlpc2946 — Thu, 15 Jul 2010 13:31:24 -0000

As I was so now you are. As I am so shall you. Prepare yourself to follow me.
Are you and New Lutheran concerned more about those around you or following Jesus?
He is the Way not the people next to you nor does it matter the church your in.
An "old" Roman Catholic turned Lutheran discovering the Way.
dlpc2946@yahoo.com

Re: About

David Housholder — Mon, 12 Jul 2010 22:51:23 -0000

I am going to steal your graph on the age thing. Great stuff! Please log onto and comment on my blog (the same issues!) http://robinwoodchurch.com

Re: AFFIRMation

New Lutheran — Tue, 29 Jun 2010 14:45:37 -0000

Thanks so much for your encouragement Crystal!

AFFIRM was definitely a positive experience for me. I hope the tone of my post didn't come across as anything but that. The difficulty for me now will be keeping a positive attitude while serving at my local church. While I loved the worship at AFFIRM, it creates an even starker contrast between what I already knew was possible and what is happening in many local churches. The key for me, I think, will be to take this contrast as an opportunity - a challenge to push forward knowing the goal isn't beyond our reach.

I'm hoping we see change before we're 80! By the time we're 80, we'll be the ones complaining to our pastors about the young whipper-snappers trying to change everything. :)

Re: AFFIRMation

Crystal Rowe — Tue, 29 Jun 2010 11:58:15 -0000

You said it best in your final sentence - you are not alone. I'm convinced the reason why I love AFFIRM so much is because it is that place where we can be Spirit-led and not worry about the repercussions that might happen because we're mixing things up again. Granted, we've had our own conversations as an AFFIRM staff about whether or not we're being "Lutheran enough" but in the end, the Spirit always seems to win.

I'm SO GLAD you were able to participate in AFFIRM this year, and I'm so glad it was a positive experience. I am thankful for the friendship that you and I have created over the last year or so - and I'm convinced that one day, all of our pressing on and pushing forward, WILL make a difference in the life of the Lutheran church in the South. We may be 80, but it WILL happen.

Re: The First Argument

Robert — Sat, 09 Jan 2010 20:39:27 -0000

Lutherans baptise infants because it is biblical they are included in christs command to baptize all nation's . If we excluded infants we also would have to exclude other age groups such as teen agers since they also are not mentioned in the bible or oldsters .
are germans and norwegians mentioned perhaps not but lutheran baptize them to.

its a means of grace

you should talk to your pastor about all this rather than crypto baptist's or denominational baptist's who are really enamies of Christ AND his gospel meassage presented in holy baptism

Re: Martin Luther Rap!

Crystal Rowe — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 12:35:43 -0000

I love it! I posted this myself a few months ago - I came across it when working on confirmation curriculum about the 95 Theses :)

Re: Self-Centered Worship?

New Lutheran — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:24:43 -0000

"I've been to a few evangelical worship services where you could go through the text of the songs and sermons do a "Find and Replace" the words "God" and "Jesus" with "Zeus" or "Odin" and the meaning of the service would have been exactly the same."

I completely agree with you here. One of my complaints about the "emergent church" (yes, I have complaints about the movement) is that it's easy for people to get caught up in the emotion, feeling, vibe, etc. of the service. I think this is especially true of my generation. We're so desperate for community and a sense of belonging that we'll go anywhere we can find it, often to the detriment of theology.

Re: Self-Centered Worship?

New Lutheran — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:13:31 -0000

Thanks so much for your contribution to the conversation Dawn... much appreciated!

"Which better conveys the idea that the pastor is acting in the stead of Christ, as His representative? Vestments or jeans and a t-shirt?"

The way you ask this sounds like you intended it to be rhetorical, with "vestments" as the easily implied answer. If that's the case, I have to respectfully disagree. Moreover, the irony is that when I see that question, I find the "jeans and a t-shirt" to be the easy answer for me.

I believe Christ was approachable and accessible to the people of His day. I can't speak for other young adults, but from my own personal perspective, a pastor who dresses like I might dress seems more like a real person to me than a pastor wearing vestments. They seem like a human being with fears, doubts, sins, and struggles. They seem approachable in all the ways Christ was and is. By putting on vestments, a pastor is immediately distancing him or herself from me by intentionally looking different. While you see theological symbolism in the practice, others might see it symbolic of separation and inaccessibility.

Obviously this is not the intended message of the vestments. I recognize that there was and is much thought and prayer behind things like vestments within the high(ish) church. There is intended symbolism and doctrine reinforcement. But how does the church body know this? Is it evident through Bible study? Can it be discerned through the Holy Spirit? Or... does it require church teaching to "get it"? Does it require "growing up in the church"? What of those who have not had access to these teachings? Are we making God less accessible to the masses by adding "churchy" things to worship?

In my humble opinion, we absolutely *should* be reducing everything to the "lowest common denominator". Strip everything away save the message of our sin, our need for a Savior, and God's free gift of life through Christ. Relaxing "church teaching" doesn't undermine the real message of Good News that God brought to the world through His Son. To me, relaxing "church teaching" can actually bolster this message by placing the focus where it needs to be.

I've noticed one thing by reading your comments and now writing my own response: we both keep saying things like "to me" and "I think". This only reinforces the idea that it is only through our own perceptions (preferences?) that symbolism within a worship service has any value. If two people perceive things differently, one can find value in a certain set of symbols while the value of that symbolism is lost entirely on the other.

Re: Self-Centered Worship?

theinnkeeper — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 10:07:40 -0000

God doesn't care a whit about 'what we do' during worship - it's not for "His" benefit, but ours - Word and Sacrament aren't "for God", but "for us". (This was Luther's interpretation of the Mass - turn the altar around to see that the Sacrament and the Mass isn't a sacrifice to God, but instead an expression of His gifts to us.)

In my opinion it doesn't matter how you "do" worship, but rather what the worship service teaches. (This is where the 'God Centered' vs. 'Self Centered' comes into play - for example, is the sermon some kind of self-help seminar giving instruction in leading a 'godly life' or is it an expression of absolution? Is the service 'Christian'? I've been to a few evangelical worship services where you could go through the text of the songs and sermons do a "Find and Replace" the words "God" and "Jesus" with "Zeus" or "Odin" and the meaning of the service would have been exactly the same.)

Re: Self-Centered Worship?

New Lutheran — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:34:33 -0000

Thanks for the comment Justin!

I've definitely experienced this "give and take" in congregations I've been a part of. You mention that the style of worship depends on the pastor's leadership style. Do you feel that there are deeper spiritual implications to worship style, "high" vs. "low" church, or personal preferences as they apply to worship experiences? Do the trappings and trimmings of our worship services affect how our worship is received by God?

Re: Self-Centered Worship?

Dawn_K — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 00:35:00 -0000

I wonder whether "self-centered" vs. "God-centered" is the right way to look at it.

I think the question should be worded more like "what does the way we worship convey about what we believe?" The assumption is that style is neutral and simply a matter of personal preference. I'm not convinced of this at all. Style conveys a message even apart from the content.

For example, what would it convey to me if I walked into a church where the pastor is leading the worship service in jeans and a t-shirt and where the music sounds just like the music I hear on the radio? It would convey to me that no one believes that anything particularly out of the ordinary is happening here. It might as well be a rock concert or a college lecture rather than a place where the God of the Universe is coming down to give us His gifts.

Which better conveys the idea that the pastor is acting in the stead of Christ, as His representative? Vestments or jeans and a t-shirt?

There is a lot of symbolism conveyed and doctrine reinforced in the liturgical worship of the church. There is a different message conveyed with rock-concert style worship. It's not just a matter of personal preference.

I think it's sad that instead of teaching people the reasons behind liturgical worship, many decide that this is too hard and want to reduce everything to the lowest common denominator instead. In our efforts to make people feel comfortable, we undermine our message.

When I go to church I am not looking for "ordinary." What happens in the Divine Service is not ordinary.

Re: Self-Centered Worship?

Justin — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 23:53:37 -0000

Speaking from a pastor's perspective, it is a give and take with the congregation. I grew up with a high church- incense, processions, pulpit preaching only, Gospel processions, and lots of ritual. This type of worship speaks to me and brings me back to what I grew up with should I be able to visit and worship in another church with this style.
I serve a low church though (these are technical terms, not insults or even my own words). Robes are fine, but so is not wearing them in the summer. No organ, but piano only. Besides the worship leader(s) of the service, the cantors and readers come from the congregation dressed how ever they are.
When I arrived at the church, the first service with communion, I grabbed my chasuble and threw it over my head before serving communion. I got a lot of odd looks. Even though this was part of my tradition, it was not part of theirs.
I introduced a sharing/testimony time which was neither of our comfort levels, but has since become a "staple" of the worship service. I added this because I felt the need to hear how God was working in the congregation's life and not just my own. It is my time, so to speak, to allow God to speak to me through that person's testimony and see how the congregation is viewing God in their lives.
So, I think it can be a give and take depending on the pastor's leadership style.

Re: Making Shift Happen

Crystal Rowe — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 17:26:51 -0000

I think 1 & 2 are the critical ones for us Lutherans today. These are the "easiest" ones to make happen quickly. The great thing about the Lutheran church is that number 5 isn't something that we have to shift towards. Small group ministry makes number 1 possible - not necessarily small groups that are based on any specific curriculum, but instead small groups that come together for some specific purpose. Check out David Stark's book Growing People Through Small Groups.

I think, at least for me, worship time becomes critical in these small group gatherings, and the large communal worship becomes a time where we realize just how big the body of Christ is. It's a paradigm shift, so the best specific action to take is to start encouraging people to be a part of a small group. Once they experience genuine Christian community through these smaller groups and begin to grow deep in their faith, then the rest begins to fall into place.

The most important action for YOU to take is to find like-minded individuals that you can partner with to begin to make the shift :)

Re: Making Shift Happen

New Lutheran — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 13:10:45 -0000

Thanks Ray!

It's your talk of doing something that I feel I need to start focusing on. I'm keenly interested in actively creating ministries that can help push predictions like these along. I've been thinking specifically about starting a cross-church worship service in the evening, online bible studies, and twitter-based ministry "campaigns".

This whole idea of community really changes things for ministry. If it's easier for me to find ministry partners through online communities than in my local church, which community should I focus on for my ministry?

Re: Making Shift Happen

Ray J Gentry — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 12:36:04 -0000

1. Yes.
2. Possibly. Isolated small groups run the risk of getting cliquey and getting lost in their own worlds if gatherings are only icing - but if the small group is the primary means of faith growth and larger gatherings are celebration of community (and not expected to be the place to grow and connect), that would be a move in the right direction.
3. Wouldn't be the worst thing for a few reasons. It would keep pastors from being completely financially dependent on the church, allowing them to ministry without the fear that if they rock the boat too much they'll be out on their ass. It would also force congregations to take ownership of their ministry because paid staff will have less time. But I do think there are benefits of pastors who are just pastors.
4. It would be nice if we trained pastors in churches for at least half of their four years. It would prevent disconnect from the real world while a pastor trains. It would also allow training without relocation - which would be a big help in fixing our pastor shortage.
5. I have, do and will pray for this. I absolutely hope this one picks up steam sooner rather than later.

But your real question is ideas - honestly, those of us who connect to this need to do something. So often I find myself complaining or analyzing things and talking about them, but not actually doing anything about them. We need to realize that we just need to take charge - too often the church is too cumbersome for us to wait. But when ministries work, churches notice and will hop on board. Great post, as always. God Bless!

In Christ Alone
Ray

Re: Lutherans And “Blendered” Worship

Crystal Rowe — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:21:47 -0000

You hit the nail on the head with this post. I feel like I'm reading my own thoughts right in front of me. Thanks!

Re: Are We Missing Out?

Martijn — Wed, 14 Oct 2009 09:41:34 -0000

Funny to see how things look quite similar in different national contexts while there are still some essential differences. In The Netherlands the Lutheran church has never been a large denomination (most protestant churches are inspired by Calvin). For almost a century Dutch society was highly 'pillarized': each societal or religious group had its own schools, sport clubs, television broadcaster and so on. However, being only a small group Dutch Lutherans never did have their own pillar. So they participated in the other pillars. But still, for some misty reason, I hardly ever meet fellow Lutherans at non-Lutheran (protestant) conferences. They simply don't show up or are completely invisible. With a lack of Lutheran conferences and gatherings there seems to be a high level of passivity among Lutherans in this small European country.